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Ugh. Well, I have an answer, but you're not going to like it. And she's going to like it even less.

Regarding the weather and natural disasters, first of all ... if God set certain rules in effect, then He's still in control. Oh, certainly, there may be times when God steps in and does something that seems contrary to the rules He created (such as Noah's Flood), but most of the time, those natural laws stay in effect ... natural laws created by Him, so they're His laws. You were both saying the same thing.

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"Science=man's thinking=deception" ... okay, there's a difference between the cult of science (as opposed to the cult of Scientology xp ), and simple logic and observation. Anything we have in this world was created through science. Dogs are bred through science; vegetables are planted through science; dyes for clothes are created through science. There's a big difference between this science and that Omegacollider crap that was built recently.

But you ask her if there's anything wrong or unholy with her cheeseburger. The bread was created by man experimenting with grains under certain circumstances, with meat being eaten after being cooked in various forms to see what's easiest, and experimenting with milk. Or, better yet, ask her about Shadrach, Meschach, and Abednego, who told the king, "look, we don't want your fatty foods; we want these diet grains. Put us to the test, us against somebody who eats the fatty stuff, and see for yourself who's better off." Or do either of you honestly think that these computers we're using now were passed down to us from on high? Hmm ... considering half of what's on the 'Net, I'd sooner think they were passed to us from on low, myself ... but no, we can't blame God or Satan for these computers; we can thank God that we have them for conversations like this, and certainly we know that Satan's the ultimate mastermind behind things like "hot2trot.com" or 4chan.

Science, in its purest form, is just taking what we have observed, and looking for a practical use for it. It is inherently flawed, and admits it. The cult of science is equally flawed, but won't admit it. They're two different things.

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9/11 and the Old Testament ... well, if you want to get technical, Noah's Flood was a result of man's sin. God looked at the world and said, "this sucks! There's only one person on the whole planet who's doing anything right! I'm just going to wipe out the rest, and let this guy's family start things over for me." So, the Flood was a result of man's sin. And, I think you'll agree, 9/11 was the same.

Did God cause it? Possible, but unlikely ... and unimportant, 'cause whether He did or not, it still happened; what are we going to do, blame Him? I'm not that crazy. Did God allow it? Whether He caused it or not, He certainly allowed it. Did He do so for a reason? Yeah, probably eight or nine hundred reasons. What's it say in Romans, that God works in all things for the good of those that love Him? No matter what happens, He can find a way to bring something good out of it. He's the ultimate optimist, and He can pull good out of bad.

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Natural disasters ... well, simple compexity theory tells us there's no way of knowing how much of, oh, Hurricane Katrina was our fault for abusing the environment, and how much was just "hey, stuff happens". Point is, it's possible that a lot of "natural disasters" are a result of man's sin ... or, they might not be. Doesn't matter; we still gotta deal with them. Getting all wrapped up in the "why" is just avoidance.

Personally, I figure "natural disasters" are just part of the shape of the universe; they happen. Doesn't matter why they happen, only that they happen.

Hypothetically, let's say, just for argument, that you and I live next-door to each other. Then a tornado comes along. You and she can question why it happened; I've accepted that it happened, and I'm going to go patch my roof. At the end of the day, I'll be the one with a patched roof; you two can sit and argue in your now-leaky house.

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That's predestination, carried to extremes. And if that's the case, then I -- with no disrespect to your roommate -- can't see how she can be a Christian. No, I'm not saying she's not, but she certainly never chose to be, did she?

Does God have everything planned out? Yes, absolutely. Does He influence things on Earth? Definitely. Does He force us to do what He wants? No, or at least not often, but He does lead us into situations where following His plan is the best move.

If God forced us to do what He wanted, then literally everything we did would be what He wanted. It'd be impossible to sin ... or, worse, God would be the source of our sin. eek Wait, how's that even hypothetically possible? If God's plan is for this person to sin, and God forces them to do so ... that's God wanting them to sin, and making sure it happens. But, since sin is rebelling against God, then we'd be rebelling ... by obeying? Hang on, I need a Tylenol. @_@

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Now for the part you're going to hate. Can your roommate let this all go long enough for you two to host your get-togethers? I mean, it's a good topic for discussions, but it doesn't sound like either of you is going to get anything out of it. You admit you won't change, and it doesn't sound like she'll change either. That's no discussion, that's fighting. And you don't want to be fighting during your get-togethers.

Further, if this is causing that much stress ... tell her this is an unwelcome subject. Neither of you is going to change, and all the subject is going to do is make matters worse. If she doesn't listen, either pack your bags or ask her to pack hers.

1. How is this contrary to what I said?
2. What makes The Flood contrary to God?
3. At times, it seemed like we were saying the same thing, but she still wasn't pleased with my view. She likes to believe that God decides what the weather is going to be, where I believe God set up a system that decides the whether though he knows the outcome. *shrug*

Honestly, I don't think it matters that much.

I think science and the fact that this world consists of pain and death is purely responsible for natural disasters. If it were an act of judgement, God would have provided His people with fair warning.

Also, "why" does kind of matter. If you think God is responsible for all the pain in this world, it very well might tempt you to abandon God. In fact, that's where the enemy used to get me all the time. But thankfully, I've learned to trust that God is good and just.

I think that something 'Bait is saying is that if we mistreat the environment and as a result we get an earthquake or storm, our sin caused it directly, not necessarily that it's a random act of God.

In the end, God created the natural world. If a storm happens, He knew it would happen before the earth even existed. He has the power to change it and it is His direct creation so technically you could link it back to Him. That doesn't mean it isn't science, it's just, I don't see a distinction between science-made and God-made (cult of science excluded). Even when you're talking about some chemical combination man discovered, man didn't create it. God created all the pieces and the laws that make it work.

I wouldn't say natural disasters are necessarily wrathful, though.

Yeah, you're right. I guess if she brings it up again, I'll just smile and ask her if we can change the subject. I prayed a long time for her last night that she would find peace with our differences and that I wouldn't upset her any longer.

I don't want this to get in the way of our discussion group, either. ><

I agree, but that's just simple cause and effect.

I had a couple of thoughts last night (which is about the most I can have at any one time) on the subjects of predestination and cause-and-effect that I wanted to share. *Shrug.*

As most people know, my wife and I take martial arts. Now, if I have to spar her ... I'm going to protect my head. Because Meadow always kicks to the head. She never kicks low, she never kicks medium ... always to the head. I know, before we even face off, she's going to try to kick me in the head ... so I protect my head.

I know what she's going to do, and I plan accordingly. Certainly, I don't force her to follow my plan. I could stop her from trying, I could even say, "darlin', my stomach's a lot bigger target than my head", but I don't ever force her to hit where I want to get hit. I just plan on her doing her thing ... and the instant I see her kicking foot start to move, I'm sweeping her other leg and putting her on her tuchus. Maybe eventually she'll learn not to do that.

Along the same lines, God knows what we're going to do. He may discourage it, He may encourage something else, but He knows what we're going to do. He doesn't force us to follow His plan; He doesn't have to. He already knows what we're going to choose, and makes His plans accordingly. If we do something foolish, His plans may include punishment, either to teach us or to serve justice.

He knows it, and He allows it, and He plans for it ... but that does not mean He caused it. It just means He's all-knowing.

Has anybody noticed that thorns and thistles and angry wild animals weren't mentioned in the Bible until after the Fall? There were animals in the Garden of Eden, but Adam and Eve weren't scared. There were definitely plants in the Garden, but no "poisonous plants" or whatnot.

I think we could make a good argument for those things being a direct result of man's sin, don't you? Cause and effect. We could even make an argument for this being a Biblically-recorded instance of evolution, brought about by humanity's actions ... but that's just a wild theory, I admit.