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 Posted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 1:57 pm
Okay, so first, 2 Samuel 24:1 says: "Again the anger of the Lord burned against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, "Go and take a census of Israel and Judah." "
So David tells Joab and the army commanders to "Go throughout the tribes of Israel from Dan to Beersheba and enroll the fighting men, so that I may know how many there are." (2 Sam. 24:2) Joab objects, but he has to do it anyway because David is king. So Joab and the army commanders go and take a census. Then, in 2 Samuel 24:10, "David was conscience stricken after he had counted the fighting men" and asked the lord for forgiveness. The Lord gives David 3 choices of punishment, and a plague comes down on the people of Israel.
What da shizzle? Isn't God the one who told David to take a census? Why does he send a plague on Israel because David did what he was told?
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Posted: Mon Oct 05, 2009 6:09 am
Hmm, toughie, I admit. But there's three things I think cover it.
1. Whenever a census is mentioned in the Bible, it's usually in conjunction with something bad. Among other things, it's how the pagan kings often stoked their own egos -- boasting of the size of their army, rather than giving glory to God. Although it's not officially stated that I know of, I believe a census is considered a sin in some Jewish schools of thought. Check 1 Chronicles 27:24.
2. As you yourself quoted, "... the anger of the Lord burned against Israel ..."
3. There's another record. Check 1 Chronicles 21 for another view of the same event.
Now, putting those together ... Satan was busy, and thus God was annoyed, because Israel was misbehaving. David did a census, against the advice of his advisor Joab ... and Joab decided to leave a few people out of the count, because he was convinced a census was a bad idea. But Joab's actions (or lack thereof) are really only a footnote. God uses the census as an excuse to take out His frustrations on the Israelites.
Well, David knew he'd screwed up, and he no doubt knew that all of Israel was screwed up. He asked for mercy, and God was merciful: He gave David the choice. Even then, God didn't go as far as He could have. After all, since all of us deserve death (wages of sin and all that), God could have wiped out even more Israelites, had He chosen. No mention is made immediately of what happened to Satan as a result of this, but I think Revelation covers it.
Now, I'm no Old Testament expert; this is just what I was able to gather from using BibleGateway.com and my own brain for about fifteen minutes. If anybody has a better idea or explanation, by all means, please share.
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 1:33 am
I see Dragonbaits points, and raise yet another...
Quoting Ninja... quoting the bible.... and with a little bit of paraphrase...
God tells David to take a census of Israel and Judah... so what does David do in response?
a) Instead of doing it himself he sends someone else to do it, whom he knew couldn't object...
and...
2) Only took a census of the fighting men... by my calculations probably less than a quarter of the actual population (if half the population is male, and the other half is female... then you limit it to only those males that are not too decrepit and not too young).
So to put this in perspective... you are asked by your boss to do inventory. In response you tell only one of your own underlings to go and count just the stuff in the warehouse... but not only that... just count the stuff on the left side of the warehouse. Then you bring your numbers back to your boss. Is he going to be happy that he now has less than a quarter of the stuff he started out with?
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Posted: Fri Oct 16, 2009 5:17 am
And even then, Joab left out some on purpose!
But going with that ... well, it has God throwing a temper tantrum and destroying his toys, just 'cause He didn't have as many toys as He thought. Somehow, I doubt that was the case. Oh, sure, it's possible, but I doubt it. Still, a viable point.
One thing I have to question, though, Kenshin: a) and 2)? eek
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Posted: Sun Nov 08, 2009 6:13 pm
Oh, I didn't say he was throwing a temper tantrum 'cause he didn't have as many toys as he thought he did. Rather, I was suggesting He was pissed because David didn't follow orders...
You have it again (I can't remember the exact verses), but there is a family (a wife and a husband) that does exactly as Jesus had told them... they sold their land and possessions, and given most of the money away, but when asked about it they said they gave all the money away... well, God didn't like that, and struck them both dead on the spot. -- Yes, what they did was good.. they gave their money to people in need.. but in their hearts they were still sinners, and they didn't get the real message that He was giving.
[edit] My wife is now telling me I got some of the story wrong...
(1) it was in acts
(b) Jesus didn't tell them to sell the land, they did it of their own free will...
(III) it was only a portion of their land that they sold (but they still held back some of the profits for themselves)
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Posted: Mon Nov 09, 2009 5:57 am
If you're referring to Ananias and Sapphira, I think the problem wasn't that they held back some, but rather that they said what they were giving the Apostles was the whole amount. I think it was Peter who said, "You aren't lying to men; you have lied to God!"
But, from what I recall, Mrs. Kenshin's right; 'twasn't Jesus who told them to do this (since He'd gone back to Heaven by this point), it was just something a few of the Apostles and other followers had decided to do: sell some possession (usually land), then give the proceeds to the community. A&S just lied about how much they made.
...
stressed ... 1, B, III? You hear that soft groaning sound in the background? That's schoolteachers across the nation doing a giant, collective facepalm.
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