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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 2:08 pm
Next to gay marriage, abortion is one of those ethical things that get argued about over and over and over again both within religious organizations, and outside of such. It is argued against in religious context.
Just wanted to see the stance of the guild here. We've beaten the topic of gay marriage to a bloody pulp, and now it's time to start fresh with another controvercial topic of ethics.
It might not come as a surprise to any of you that... being the far-leftist that I am, I am pro-choice. This does not mean that I am a maniac who thinks every fetus in the world needs to be aborted--it means that I support a woman's right to choose whether or not to get an abortion.
So then... What do you fine people think? What's your stance on this topic, and what do you think of laws either allowing or banning abortion in clinics?
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:32 pm
First of all, I believe that it is morally wrong to use abortion as a form of birth control. If ya dun screwed up, you can durn well deal with the consequences.
But, there are cases when abortion is acceptable, in my book. Rape, incest, and if the mother's/child's life is in danger. If you honestly can't afford to raise a child, give it up for adoption.
My 2 cents.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 3:46 pm
I believe that God has a purpose for every life, born or unborn, there is a plan for every person. Abotion is murder; just because the child is unborn that doesn't mean it's not a living human being.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 5:12 pm
Gah! my stance on this topic is a bit confusing to some people.
We have actually talked about it before, but the topic is like, 3 pages back or something--so this new one is totally approved for existence by me. woot.
I am Pro-Life. I don't believe abortion is right, and I don't think people should have the proceedure--exept for extenuating circumstances such as (like DemiGoddessHalfDemon mentioned) rape, incest, and most importantly, a danger to the mother and child.
Biggest point here: Abortion does NOT equal birth control. There are people who think this way, and that disgusts me. Because I do believe you are killing a living thing, a little person with potential and a chance to do great things in this world.
Pregnant moms talk about their kids as if they are living, and developing personality, while they are in the womb--and really, the ones living with them for 9 months should know if they are a person or not before birth.
The bible tells us that the Life is in the Blood. (can't remember verse numbers, will try to find them later) Blood enters the fetus at 9 days. So if you take it VERY literally (and God does sometimes tell us things in TOTALLY OBVIOUS ways), that means that a fetus is living at the ninth day of it's existence.
Now, where things get confusing: I am Pro-choice.
Yes, I am both.
I totally support a woman's right to choose whether or not to get an abortion and the fact that abortions are legal in this country. Though I have a problem with abortion, and I would NOT get one myself or encourage anyone to do so, I recognize that not everyone believes the same as I do.
Before abortions were legal in this country (and in many places in the world today where they are not legal) women still wanted abortions, and got them--but it totally unsafe, unsanitary ways that many times killed the woman involved. In africa, there are clinics FULL of women who botched abortions, DIEING because they couldn't get an operation legally.
So yes, I support the legality of abortion, but I don't like the act. I can't morally be behind the decision to kill an unborn child.
I hope that makes sense.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 7:01 pm
I believe it applies, so I will quote it:
"If Guns are outlawed, then only the outlaws will have Guns"
This of course agrees with Rowenas Statement. Go to a major city, and you will find plenty of street doctors willing to do your surgeries and whatnot for teh right price. if they can pull a bullet out of you, you can bet they'd be at least willing to try and pull a fetus. Is it wrong as Birth Control? Sure, I personally disagree with it. There are many thousands of couples out there who want children, even some willing to pay for it, don't kill a child that they would be more than happy to take home to a loving family.
And many times, desperation overpowers noted risk. Don't believe me? Walk up to your parents, and ask them how they'd react to you being a parent, now. Not exactly the most light hearted conversation.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:08 pm
The only time I really agree with abortion taking place is when giving birth will kill the mother.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:12 pm
I agree it really shouldn't be used as a form of birth control, but I guess the definition of "birth control" would need to be considered, too--as well as the number of unadopted children in the world when considering giving a child up for adoption.
I personally would simply avoid getting pregnant in the first place, but I suppose for women who actually obtain pleasure from penises (excuse how very blunt that is), that might be sort of difficult. Though I openly support the idea of responsibility to the responsible, I also believe that it's no one else's right to decide something like that for a mother. I believe it is her own right, and her's alone.
I see what you're getting at, Rowena. It's not entirely impossible to be both pro-life and pro-choice at the same time, especially since, contrary to popular belief, they are not complete opposites. Pro-life doesn't need to necessarily imply intolerance of a woman's right to choose, and pro-choice doesn't need to necessarily mean pro-abortion/anti-life. As political stances, they're seperate--however. Ethically, the line is blurred a bit.
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:44 pm
Is it right? No. Not really. Is it sometimes neccessary? Yeah. Sometimes it is. A dangerous pregnancy, or a child that isn't developing. At all. I do not believe in aborting a, shall we say, retarded child. That's wrong. Everyone should be given the choice of life. But sometimes a child does not develop. They stop, or something to that effect. Then it's a danger to the mother. Get rid of it. Try again. But as birth control? Hell no. You you didn't want to get pregnant, then you need a different hobby. The above is, of course, slightly altered for slightly altered cases... Rape. Bad. It's not wanted... and it'll probably cause the mother a sudden and severe case of death. Gads...
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Posted: Wed Jun 28, 2006 11:46 pm
There are alot of blurred lines in ethics, unfortunately. Not everything is black and white. There's a whole heck of a lot of grey too.
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Posted: Thu Jun 29, 2006 12:23 am
Rowena Marion There are alot of blurred lines in ethics, unfortunately. Not everything is black and white. There's a whole heck of a lot of grey too. One of the most important rules to remember in art. Specifically in pencil art. blaugh
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Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 9:22 am
ShadowCat495 Rowena Marion There are alot of blurred lines in ethics, unfortunately. Not everything is black and white. There's a whole heck of a lot of grey too. One of the most important rules to remember in art. Specifically in pencil art. blaugh that made me laugh IRL. rofl
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Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 11:47 am
First off I want to say that, on this topic, I am a b***h and nothing anyone can say or do will change my mind on this topic. Abortion is sooooooooooo wrong. It is murder. Killing a human is wrong, so killing a fetus is no better. There is no circumstance where I support it. If you get raped and get pregnant, I say sorry sweetie, but deal with it. I have all the compassion in the world for you, but if you really do not feel that you can keep the child, put it up for adoption. In any circumstance if you really cannot keep the child there is adoption. There are far too many people, generally teen mothers, who use it as a form of birth control. For instance, my little sister has a friend who is 15 years old and has already had three abortions. And the sick part is, the clinic she goes to advertises "First three free." Which is just nasty. After three months in the womb, the baby has a heart beat. At that point, it is considered a living creature, and it should be constituted as murder. Most clinics in Canada will not do an abortion past 12 weeks, but I know for a fact that there is the odd one or two out there that will do it up to 8 months. If you kill a pregnant woman, you can be charged with the death of the mother and the baby. In this situation, the baby has rights, so why should it not have rights in the abortion scenario? Nobody asks the baby what it wants, just the mother. The mother does not want the baby for whatever reason, but she should not have gotton pregnant in the first place. That's why there are condoms and birth control pills and other such contraception methods. In the case of the mother or baby or both will not survive...that is the course that God chose for the baby and/or mother. Now, I am obviously not religious, but in this situation, that is the only thing that can make me feel even half decent about myself saying this. I do not want to see a new born baby die, and I do not want to see the mother die either, but if it is going to happen, I would much rather it happen naturally than medically. I'm sorry....I said I was a b***h on this topic...I tried to be nice about it...It could have been worse. I am jsut completely against abortion. I would have an older sibling if not for abortion, and I pretty much hate anything that has to do with the topic.
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Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 1:20 pm
Wiccan Clarinet First off I want to say that, on this topic, I am a b***h and nothing anyone can say or do will change my mind on this topic. Abortion is sooooooooooo wrong. It is murder. Killing a human is wrong, so killing a fetus is no better. There is no circumstance where I support it. If you get raped and get pregnant, I say sorry sweetie, but deal with it. I have all the compassion in the world for you, but if you really do not feel that you can keep the child, put it up for adoption. In any circumstance if you really cannot keep the child there is adoption. There are far too many people, generally teen mothers, who use it as a form of birth control. For instance, my little sister has a friend who is 15 years old and has already had three abortions. And the sick part is, the clinic she goes to advertises "First three free." Which is just nasty. After three months in the womb, the baby has a heart beat. At that point, it is considered a living creature, and it should be constituted as murder. Most clinics in Canada will not do an abortion past 12 weeks, but I know for a fact that there is the odd one or two out there that will do it up to 8 months. If you kill a pregnant woman, you can be charged with the death of the mother and the baby. In this situation, the baby has rights, so why should it not have rights in the abortion scenario? Nobody asks the baby what it wants, just the mother. The mother does not want the baby for whatever reason, but she should not have gotton pregnant in the first place. That's why there are condoms and birth control pills and other such contraception methods. In the case of the mother or baby or both will not survive...that is the course that God chose for the baby and/or mother. Now, I am obviously not religious, but in this situation, that is the only thing that can make me feel even half decent about myself saying this. I do not want to see a new born baby die, and I do not want to see the mother die either, but if it is going to happen, I would much rather it happen naturally than medically. I'm sorry....I said I was a b***h on this topic...I tried to be nice about it...It could have been worse. I am jsut completely against abortion. I would have an older sibling if not for abortion, and I pretty much hate anything that has to do with the topic. i agree with you completely. :]
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Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 2:21 pm
Not sure I've ever heard of a clinic that's allowed abortion after stage 1 of the pregnancy. Isn't that against the law? The clinic you described sounds a little off... First three free? o.o; Sounds like a hot deal at a local car shop.
I will eternally think that it's a mother's choice, no matter what, so long as the fetus is in the appropriate stages for an abortion (after that, then I say, live with it). I don't agree with people using it as a form of birth control (which I have since learned it is used for much less than I thought)--but it's not up to me how they choose to run their lives.
Yes, they could have the child and give it up for adoption. Howevere, there is the little problem, with me, that many, many, many children will be orphans their entire lives until adulthood, and that doesn't rest well with me. Orphanages are packed as they are, and it is sooo very expensive to adopt that lots of people don't do it. I feel for those kids...
Condoms, birth control pills, and the like are not fool proof ways of birth control. The best birth control is abstinence. Some people would rather not wait, and they do their damndest to make sure they don't get pregnant. My cousin in Cobh actually recently had a baby, she's... about three months older than me. She used protection and took the pill--but she still had a baby. She didn't abort of course (did I mention my family is Catholic?) She is in a secure financial position, however, so she had nothing to worry about besides the immense pain of delivering a child. >.> Granted, she never considered abortion. (Irish procreate, dammit!!)
Point is, if you have sex (penetration), period, with a member of the opposite sex, there will always be a risk of pregnancy. Again, the only way to prevent it should be to not have sex, or at least intercourse period. People, sadly, are innately stupid and irresponsible (especially teenagers ^.~), and they'll go off and have sex, and escape the consequences with abortion--which, again, I don't agree with, but it's not my choice.
Again, like Rowena... I'm not pro-abortion... and I don't think I'd be especially happy if anyone I knew did it except for in certain circumstances (like rape/risk to mother/risk to child), but I'm pro-choice, and I'm not for repression.
I don't consider it as murder--not until third stage... Second is a little iffy. Not sure about second. But yes, pro-choice.
Bloody liberal! (^o^)/ おう!!
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Posted: Fri Jun 30, 2006 4:27 pm
Wiccan Clarinet If you kill a pregnant woman, you can be charged with the death of the mother and the baby. In this situation, the baby has rights, so why should it not have rights in the abortion scenario? GREAT POINT! PirateEire Point is, if you have sex (penetration), period, with a member of the opposite sex, there will always be a risk of pregnancy. Again, the only way to prevent it should be to not have sex, or at least intercourse period. People, sadly, are innately stupid and irresponsible (especially teenagers ^.~), and they'll go off and have sex, and escape the consequences with abortion--which, again, I don't agree with, but it's not my choice. exactly. There is NO guarentee (sp?). One thing I always loved about Mother Teresa was her abstinence programs--she taught couples who couldn't afford more children about abstinence instead of riskier forms of birth control, and it helped alot of people.
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